Land stewards are labelled denialists if their work isn’t reduced to radiative forcing moral valuation. Factors of ecosystem process and soil hydrology are worthless to radiative purists.
Biomass of all varieties is just an obstacle to the mines needed for the minerals to make wind and solar energy extractors and the “farms” to mount those extractors.
Imagine how wonderful Earth will be when the land is devoid of dangerous biomass; all replaced with mines for the minerals and horizon to horizon wind and solar farms – if only skeptics were not putting up road blocks at every turn the true believers could get on with the vital transition away from burning fossil fuels to the purity of “renewable” energy..
Chris Hanley
February 23, 2023 6:52 pm
Apart from any of the speaker’s conclusions and recommendations concerning livestock, his premise is wrong the planet is not ‘desertifying’ but the opposite.
As long as they aren’t goats. Goats are hardy and tough, much more so than even paleo-sheep, so they are the herder’s choice. But goat-herding has been a very large contributor to desertification in the Middle East. It has to do with goats eating plants down and then pulling them up by the roots, if the area is sparsely vegetated. Whereas sheep only have cutting teeth and leave plants with a chance to grow back. This is according to what I heard many years ago from a sheep farmer in Scotland, but he might have been biased, you never know with people.
To see what happens when you ban itinerant goat herders for 70-odd years, take a look at the border between Israel and Egypt on satellite imagery. For once, Bing has better imagery than Google, whose current generation is checkerboxed in that area, and fuzzed out on the Israel side of the border (clever Israeli intelligence?). You don’t have to stomach the overall uselessness of Bing, here is a full-screen capture, zoomed in to show individual bushes. I’m sure the green grassy areas are enhanced because we all love colours that are brighter than reality, right? It’s about 30 km southeast of the coast. Desertification is a reversible process once you get goats out of the picture.
NB the return of desert plants has nothing to do with irrigation. Take a look at the whole country to see how much land is being irrigated. And it’s all done with desalination! I get upset when I hear negative things about Israel. There’s so much positive to talk about.
As I recall, the difference is due to overgrazing. Desert is slow to recover and if you keep more animals on it than it can support, there will be no recovery. When you’re poor, the only way you can see to be better off is to run as many animals as you can afford. Forget about the long term consequences because everybody else will be doing the same. We have that problem on public land in the United States but a long time ago, the government started to regulate how many animals a person could have on public land. As the result things have improved.
My family has farmed and ranched in W Montana since the 1860’s. They ran
a sizeable band of Angora goats for a fiber cash crop in the early days.. Their main
crop was dryland wheat and cattle. They ate a lot of goat due to no
electricity.. Same in equatorial E Africa today. After synthetic fiber came into
use the goat herds were sold off and the range changed. Invasive weeds
came in and took over some areas. It’s been said that the ranchers in Texas couldn’t
run cows if they didn’t have goats. Goats are browsers, sheep/cows are grazers.
It’s been said that more people on the planet live off of goat meat than all
the other meats combined. Go to Australia where goats came in off of sailing ships
in the early days and were let go. Half the goat meat consumed in the US is
imported from Australia.. Watch this video–>
Saddle of kid goat is fit for a king. The US is
the only country that doesn’t eat goat, but
that is changing fast. I ran a band of Australian
Karakan Cashmere goats on a leafy spurge
project for over 30yrs. The Boer/Cashmere
cross kids weaned in 90 days were bigger than
their moms.. those were the best selling to the meat
buyers. Or to the other prescribed grazing buyers..
.
I have some familiarity with grazing animals and I know for certain they do not like dirt in their food. This is just one reason why downy brome also known as “cheat grass” is a nuisance plant.
Israel has been the object of very extensive landscape changes that were started decades before the state of Israel existed. Livestock is not the only major influence on landscape and water retention therein.
Of course the entire article was based on saying the use of grazing animals to maintain grasslands had been proven to be a failure.
Of course *none* of the objectors can explain how the grasslands of the semi-arid DESERT region known as the central plains of the US were maintained for centuries by the grazing bison that did *exactly* what Mr. Savory was asserting. The bison herds were a migrating phenomenon, just like Mr. Savory proposed by doing short-term grazing in small paddocks and rotating the paddocks often. The bison never stayed in one location for too long.
Nothing like academics totally ignoring reality and history with their assertions. I suspect you can find the exact same conditions in some of the savannahs of Africa where migrating herds of ruminants helped maintain the grass.
Give Monbiot a break…poor guy has to come up with controversial blather every week to keep his job, which is to produce a column in a rag that specializes in controversial blather. He’s doing a fine job, especially considering the cognitive dissonance he must feel.
/s
What is it about people continuing to listen to proven incompetents and liars? Moinbiot is the Paul Krugman of Climate Change.
JEyon
February 23, 2023 9:59 pm
1:29 “[desertfication] happens only when we create too much bare ground – there is no other cause” – the sahara has periodically shifted between lush green and desert every 20,000 years – long before the industrial age
this was a discovery reported in 2019 (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aav1887) – 6 years after this TED talk – and doesn’t conflict with his theme – since most people would be too impatient to wait 15,000 years for the next greening
Yes we’ve seen this story before, a long time ago.
Did anyone pay any attention to the guy back then?
He’s very brave, he’s gone out there and put money/reputation etc etc where his mouth and beliefs are and the picture he paints is ‘interesting’
Did he stir anything in anybody or was he just another performer in some surreal cabaret
Was he just another PieceOfInformation added to an already mountainous pile of soon forgotten trivia?
Hideously mislabelled as ‘Science’
But did anyone actually *learn* anything? Did anyone do any further research?
After closing the youtube tab/window did anyone do *anything* more on this subject?
Did they use the information Savory presents to build on their own experience, existing knowledge or from what they see in their day-to-day lives?
They didn’t. It’s obvious they didn’t.
Nobody did. Nobody actually cares. Everybody is full of sh1t and with every day that passes, Modern Science and the MSM pumps them up with ever more.
In a strange way, it seems to make them happy. (Not me. It hurts my head)
iow: Did Knowledge increase
Does anyone even know the difference between Knowledge and Information
As we see in an adjacent story, even the (self professed) mighty and (actually) laughable UN doesn’t know the difference.
As a little test (I’ve told the answer dozens of times):
Does anyone see the fatal flaw in what Savory is doing?
Has anyone gleaned the knowledge to see/understand how he’s ‘on the right track‘ but ‘missing something‘
And what’s so amazing, what defines Flat Landers, is that The Flaw is the size of Planet Earth itself. It is *that* big. It is The Fabric of Earth itself.
Insane that The Guy Savory himself doesn’t see it, The Thing is sooooo big even he can’t grasp it. Yet is is so blindingly obvious. It’s talked about constantly on here – yet the connection is never made
But by definition, MyopicFlatlanders, TheSelfObsessed and MinutiaMiners can not see it.
You’re not one of them are you, else wrap up warm
Maybe do so anyway, at present rate the MinutiaMiners are gonna take us all down
What is Alan Savory missing, what is it that he cannot see?
They are abundant producers of C02, without which our current climate would die. Bunch of poorly educated morons. No concept or grasp of reality.
Land stewards are labelled denialists if their work isn’t reduced to radiative forcing moral valuation. Factors of ecosystem process and soil hydrology are worthless to radiative purists.
Biomass of all varieties is just an obstacle to the mines needed for the minerals to make wind and solar energy extractors and the “farms” to mount those extractors.
Imagine how wonderful Earth will be when the land is devoid of dangerous biomass; all replaced with mines for the minerals and horizon to horizon wind and solar farms – if only skeptics were not putting up road blocks at every turn the true believers could get on with the vital transition away from burning fossil fuels to the purity of “renewable” energy..
Apart from any of the speaker’s conclusions and recommendations concerning livestock, his premise is wrong the planet is not ‘desertifying’ but the opposite.
This was a topic on WUWT in March of 2013.
Search: Allan Savory livestock
As long as they aren’t goats. Goats are hardy and tough, much more so than even paleo-sheep, so they are the herder’s choice. But goat-herding has been a very large contributor to desertification in the Middle East. It has to do with goats eating plants down and then pulling them up by the roots, if the area is sparsely vegetated. Whereas sheep only have cutting teeth and leave plants with a chance to grow back. This is according to what I heard many years ago from a sheep farmer in Scotland, but he might have been biased, you never know with people.
To see what happens when you ban itinerant goat herders for 70-odd years, take a look at the border between Israel and Egypt on satellite imagery. For once, Bing has better imagery than Google, whose current generation is checkerboxed in that area, and fuzzed out on the Israel side of the border (clever Israeli intelligence?). You don’t have to stomach the overall uselessness of Bing, here is a full-screen capture, zoomed in to show individual bushes. I’m sure the green grassy areas are enhanced because we all love colours that are brighter than reality, right? It’s about 30 km southeast of the coast. Desertification is a reversible process once you get goats out of the picture.
NB the return of desert plants has nothing to do with irrigation. Take a look at the whole country to see how much land is being irrigated. And it’s all done with desalination! I get upset when I hear negative things about Israel. There’s so much positive to talk about.
As I recall, the difference is due to overgrazing. Desert is slow to recover and if you keep more animals on it than it can support, there will be no recovery. When you’re poor, the only way you can see to be better off is to run as many animals as you can afford. Forget about the long term consequences because everybody else will be doing the same. We have that problem on public land in the United States but a long time ago, the government started to regulate how many animals a person could have on public land. As the result things have improved.
I believe that’s called the “Tragedy of the Commons”.
My family has farmed and ranched in W Montana since the 1860’s. They ran
a sizeable band of Angora goats for a fiber cash crop in the early days.. Their main
crop was dryland wheat and cattle. They ate a lot of goat due to no
electricity.. Same in equatorial E Africa today. After synthetic fiber came into
use the goat herds were sold off and the range changed. Invasive weeds
came in and took over some areas. It’s been said that the ranchers in Texas couldn’t
run cows if they didn’t have goats. Goats are browsers, sheep/cows are grazers.
It’s been said that more people on the planet live off of goat meat than all
the other meats combined. Go to Australia where goats came in off of sailing ships
in the early days and were let go. Half the goat meat consumed in the US is
imported from Australia.. Watch this video–>
Love some goat curry.
Saddle of kid goat is fit for a king. The US is
the only country that doesn’t eat goat, but
that is changing fast. I ran a band of Australian
Karakan Cashmere goats on a leafy spurge
project for over 30yrs. The Boer/Cashmere
cross kids weaned in 90 days were bigger than
their moms.. those were the best selling to the meat
buyers. Or to the other prescribed grazing buyers..
.
I have some familiarity with grazing animals and I know for certain they do not like dirt in their food. This is just one reason why downy brome also known as “cheat grass” is a nuisance plant.
Israel has been the object of very extensive landscape changes that were started decades before the state of Israel existed. Livestock is not the only major influence on landscape and water retention therein.
Perhaps Paul should do some research. George Moinbiot discussed that extensively in 2014 as can be easily discovered using google. See:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2014/aug/04/eat-more-meat-and-save-the-world-the-latest-implausible-farming-miracle
Of course the entire article was based on saying the use of grazing animals to maintain grasslands had been proven to be a failure.
Of course *none* of the objectors can explain how the grasslands of the semi-arid DESERT region known as the central plains of the US were maintained for centuries by the grazing bison that did *exactly* what Mr. Savory was asserting. The bison herds were a migrating phenomenon, just like Mr. Savory proposed by doing short-term grazing in small paddocks and rotating the paddocks often. The bison never stayed in one location for too long.
Nothing like academics totally ignoring reality and history with their assertions. I suspect you can find the exact same conditions in some of the savannahs of Africa where migrating herds of ruminants helped maintain the grass.
Give Monbiot a break…poor guy has to come up with controversial blather every week to keep his job, which is to produce a column in a rag that specializes in controversial blather. He’s doing a fine job, especially considering the cognitive dissonance he must feel.
/s
What is it about people continuing to listen to proven incompetents and liars? Moinbiot is the Paul Krugman of Climate Change.
1:29 “[desertfication] happens only when we create too much bare ground – there is no other cause” – the sahara has periodically shifted between lush green and desert every 20,000 years – long before the industrial age
this was a discovery reported in 2019 (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aav1887) – 6 years after this TED talk – and doesn’t conflict with his theme – since most people would be too impatient to wait 15,000 years for the next greening
Yes we’ve seen this story before, a long time ago.
Did anyone pay any attention to the guy back then?
He’s very brave, he’s gone out there and put money/reputation etc etc where his mouth and beliefs are and the picture he paints is ‘interesting’
Did he stir anything in anybody or was he just another performer in some surreal cabaret
Was he just another PieceOfInformation added to an already mountainous pile of soon forgotten trivia?
Hideously mislabelled as ‘Science’
But did anyone actually *learn* anything? Did anyone do any further research?
After closing the youtube tab/window did anyone do *anything* more on this subject?
Did they use the information Savory presents to build on their own experience, existing knowledge or from what they see in their day-to-day lives?
They didn’t. It’s obvious they didn’t.
Nobody did. Nobody actually cares. Everybody is full of sh1t and with every day that passes, Modern Science and the MSM pumps them up with ever more.
In a strange way, it seems to make them happy. (Not me. It hurts my head)
iow: Did Knowledge increase
Does anyone even know the difference between Knowledge and Information
As we see in an adjacent story, even the (self professed) mighty and (actually) laughable UN doesn’t know the difference.
As a little test (I’ve told the answer dozens of times):
Does anyone see the fatal flaw in what Savory is doing?
Has anyone gleaned the knowledge to see/understand how he’s ‘on the right track‘ but ‘missing something‘
And what’s so amazing, what defines Flat Landers, is that The Flaw is the size of Planet Earth itself. It is *that* big. It is The Fabric of Earth itself.
Insane that The Guy Savory himself doesn’t see it, The Thing is sooooo big even he can’t grasp it. Yet is is so blindingly obvious. It’s talked about constantly on here – yet the connection is never made
But by definition, MyopicFlatlanders, TheSelfObsessed and MinutiaMiners can not see it.
You’re not one of them are you, else wrap up warm
Maybe do so anyway, at present rate the MinutiaMiners are gonna take us all down
What is Alan Savory missing, what is it that he cannot see?
Of course, you have to do something with all those animals. Turns out there is a solution for that problem also: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g>