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Lots of new Valve/SteamVR "Knuckles" Controller info (separate finger tracking!)

D

Durante

Member
Today a lot of new information about the SteamVR "Knuckles" controller came to light.
For those not following the matter, these are new VR controllers being designed by Valve which are now being provided to external developers in prototype form.
Their main features over the existing controllers are:
  • Designed to clasp on your hand, which means you can naturally grab and release objects without dropping your controller
  • More ergonomic shape with easier to reach face buttons
  • As now clear, full analog 4-digit "curl" tracking using capacitive sensors

"Knuckles Quick Start" guide

Knuckles Cap Sense Overview

Images from these articles follow.

Input mapping:
66327F69DD45C4DAECF7D1559F7E94FD91DCB30B

1FF64813E679B9715D7559DAD4AAFB8AD8EEA437
Click to expand...

Putting on the controllers:
3D43840A02EAE926C302FB48270E6F2B504BA8BF
Click to expand...

Finger tracking calibration:
C70077FF647E71BDCB41611653DCA757E88617F5
Click to expand...
 
E

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
What kind of sensors are these exactly? Are we talking contactless measurements based on changes in an electromagnetic field? Or pressure based?
 
asker

asker

Member
Now that normal movement is kinda gaining ground as a viable means of locomotion, I hope they consider adding a regular joystick to at least one of the controllers. I've yet to find a game that uses the trackpad for something other than an emulated joystick or as stand-in for a button anyway. Emulated joysticks are always wonky and are hard to control with good accuracy. Imagine how much easier Windlands, Onward etc. would be to control with a physical joystick.

They seem to have realized as much when designing the Steam Controller, where initial designs only offered the touchpad joysticks but a physical one was added later.
 
S

Sleeping Lesson

Member
I can't wait for these. Interactions will be much more intuitive! I don't think they'll replace my current Vive controllers completely, but will supplement them wonderfully.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
The fact that these are labelled as axes and not buttons (and are therefore analogue) means you can potentially do some really cool grip related things, like realistic recoil management for weapons
 
D

Durante

Member
asker said:
I've yet to find a game that uses the trackpad for something other than an emulated joystick or as stand-in for a button anyway.
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head I can think of (1) d-pad like uses (probably the most common, and one I'd really miss because a joystick would be worse for directional blink teleport), (2) multi-button use (with the button boundaries indicated using haptics, often changing layouts depending on which tool you are using), (3) gesture use (e.g. flicking in different directions for skills in multiple games), (4) joystick-like use, and finally (5) combinations of those (e.g directional mapping on the outer ring, button(s) on the inside.

I've seen all of these options in actual games.
 
D

derFeef

Member
They look pretty advanced already, curious how long it will be until they are finalized and HTC (I assume) will produce them.
 
asker

asker

Member
Durante said:
I've seen all of these options in actual games.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that we would still have a touchpad in the other hand, so I'm sure that with these two options most developers could achieve whatever they can imagine without compromise. Unless they need dual flicking action or something similarly insane.

Edit: Perhaps you just meant to point out where I was mistaken in that statement. If so; yes, you would be correct.

Edit2: Another point I would wish to add is that the physical presence of a joystick would really help in feeling where your thumb is placed and which direction you're tilting, since your vision is obscured. Having to look down in VR to see an indicator on a touchpad is less than ideal.
 
W

Wrestlemania

Banned
asker said:
Keep in mind that we would still have a touchpad in the other hand, so I'm sure that with these two options most developers could achieve whatever they can imagine without compromise. Unless they need dual flicking action or something similarly insane.

Edit: Perhaps you just meant to point out where I was mistaken in that statement. If so; yes, you would be correct.

Edit2: Another point I would wish to add is that the physical presence of a joystick would really help in feeling where your thumb is placed and which direction you're tilting, since your vision is obscured. Having to look down in VR to see an indicator on a touchpad is less than ideal.
Click to expand...

One touch pad and one stick would be the perfect combination. They’re already moving to a asymmetric design to do this finger tracking so the argument about having them work in either hand is moot now.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
These are really cool. Hope I can get my hands on them soon. Had some game ideas that could use them. Experimented with leapmotion before.

efyu_lemonardo said:
What kind of sensors are these exactly? Are we talking contactless measurements based on changes in an electromagnetic field? Or pressure based?
Click to expand...
Capacitive so it tries to determine your finger position based on fluctuations in electrical measurements on a grid.
I would imagine this is supplemented using the lighthouse tracking of the hand itself and some rigid body model.
It won't be 100% accurate but much better than just tracking controllers.
 
J

jett

D-Member
Well that's interesting.

Wonder what the next progression in controllers is going to be like. The Move and the previous Vive controller look ancient compared to this.
 
W

Wardancer

Neo Member
Wrestlemania said:
One touch pad and one stick would be the perfect combination. They're already moving to a asymmetric design to do this finger tracking so the argument about having them work in either hand is moot now.
Click to expand...

Except that this makes that kind of design harder because not everyone is right handed or have a dominant right eye.

Edit:

Theonik said:
I would imagine this is supplemented using the lighthouse tracking of the hand itself and some rigid body model.
Click to expand...

What? The Lighthouses cant track anything but the controller.
 
E

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
Theonik said:
These are really cool. Hope I can get my hands on them soon. Had some game ideas that could use them. Experimented with leapmotion before.


Capacitive so it tries to determine your finger position based on fluctuations in electrical measurements on a grid.
I would imagine this is supplemented using the lighthouse tracking of the hand itself and some rigid body model.
It won't be 100% accurate but much better than just tracking controllers.
Click to expand...

So "finger curl" is probably more like "amount of finger (starting from the base) touching a trackpad like surface"?
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
Do we know nothing about new advancements in the headset department, instead? I'm assuming the commercial version of these, will bundled with it, eventually.
 
D

Durante

Member
bomblord1 said:
Are they backwards compatible with existing games that use the current Vive controllers?
Click to expand...
They have 1 more face button, the same trackpad and trigger, and lots of additional sensors.

The only thing the software would need to do is map the capacitive grip sensing to the state of the Vive controller grip button (or else, when that does not make sense for a specific game, to the second face button).
 
asker

asker

Member
Wardancer said:
Except that this makes that kind of design harder because not everyone is right handed or have a dominant right eye.
Click to expand...
It would probably be least offensive to everyone to place the joystick on the left controller, since that's the thumb we've been conditioned to use for movement since the NES with few complaints. I don't know how eye dominance should have any impact on this.
 
B

bomblord1

Banned
Durante said:
They have 1 more face button, the same trackpad and trigger, and lots of additional sensors.

The only thing the software would need to do is map the capacitive grip sensing to the state of the Vive controller grip button (or else, when that does not make sense for a specific game, to the second face button).
Click to expand...

Hopefully Valve can set up something to automatically do that then.
 
A

Alexlf

Member
Man those look cool. They've successfully displaced the Touch controllers as coolest looking VR controllers IMO.
 
D

Durante

Member
UrbanRats said:
Do we know nothing about new advancements in the headset department, instead? I'm assuming the commercial version of these, will bundled with it, eventually.
Click to expand...
We know that the LG SteamVR HMD is still planned for later this year.
We also know from interviews and code changes that Valve has experimented a lot with specifically built-for-VR screens (and prototypes). But I don't think they'll design a consumer HMD, just help other companies with what they want to bring to the market.

I personally think these controllers will be purchasable separately.
 
G

Gattsu25

Banned
Looks fantastic.

The controller gripping your hand to prevent it falling off seems like a game changer.
Finger position tracking is a welcome addition.
However, I'm loving the new button + track pad positions and shapes.
 
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