Perhaps no publication so masterfully articulated the cultural semiotics of the 1980s—the greed, the excess, the wanton vulgarity—with the wit and aplomb of Spy. Founded by Graydon Carter, now the long-tenured editor of Vanity Fair, and Kurt Andersen, the novelist and radio host, Spy was (as its logo proclaimed) fun, funny, and fearless. In the magazine's pages, former Secretary of State and notable gadfly Henry Kissinger was reduced to, hysterically, a “socialite war criminal.” Arthur Sulzberger Jr., then the successor to his father as chairman of The New York Times, was dubbed “the soft, anxious heir to the throne.” But no epithet was more infamous, or oft-repeated as that of “the short-fingered vulgarian,” Donald Trump. Nor was any as enduring. At last week’s Republican presidential debate, Trump, the party’s improbable frontrunner, asked the audience, “Look at those hands. Are those small hands?”

In a humorous and revealing conversation with NPR reporter David Folkenflik that aired Monday morning, Carter and Andersen reflect on the origins of Trump’s tagline (“Queens-born casino operator,” for one didn’t quite stick) and the history of their relationship to the digit-challenged businessman. They reveal the very formation of some of Trump’s most primal and absurd habits. So what happens if Trump wins? “Graydon and I would share a bunk in the internment camp,” Andersen notes. Carter, however, thinks it won’t get to that. Nevertheless, he notes, “I’m sure he wants to kill me—with those little hands.”

Listen to Folkenflik’s full interview with the editors here.